Natasha Lyonne on Good Hang with Amy Poehler

Hello everyone. Welcome to another

episode of Good Hang. I am so excited

about our episode today. It is with the

sweet, dreamy, and brilliantly smart

Natasha Leon. Um, we talk about so many

things today. It is a a a symphony of

conversation. We talk about what it was

like to live in New York City as a young

kid. Uh, we talk about um Norah Efron

and how important she was to Natasha. We

talk about making hits together and um

what it felt like to be part of a show

that meant so much to us and to so many

people. And so it is a really

interesting funny and deep conversation

like it always is with Natasha and to be

um guided as to what I should ask. I

always like to check in with people who

know Natasha well, who have worked with

her, who count her as family. And so I

asked um two of Natasha's closest

friends to join me and give me some

questions to ask. And so joining me

right now via Zoom is Ronan Pharaoh,

journalist, podcast host of the new

podcast, Not a Very Good Murderer and

playwright actor screenwriter and

creative director of the Williamstown

Theater Festival, The Great Jeremy

O'Haris. Ronin Jeremy, hello.

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[Music]

First of all, let me start. Where are

where am I talking to you? Where are

you, Jeremy? In in the world.

Oh my god. Do you want I don't want to

embarrass myself, but I So, I'm trying

to get a very popular actress to do a

movie I'm producing. So I am I'm still

with her at Jack's wife's Freda with the

director and I am in the bathroom of

Jack

Freda on University.

Oh my I So you're in the bathroom of a

restaurant trying to secure an actress

for a project.

Yes. I'm a girl boss like you and I'm

just trying to make sure all my side

hustles like flourish.

Very very good. I love it. Always

hustling. Always moving forward, never

looking back. Perfect. And then Ronan,

where are you? I'm uh in my my home

office on the Lower East Side, not

trying to convince a glamorous actress

of anything right now, but you know, the

the day is young.

I could find an actress to try to

persuade

in some way.

Yeah maybe.

I'm going to try to keep up here.

Jeremy's a lot to keep up with.

I mean, I have so many questions and I

hope, by the way, that both of you come

on so I can get in in in depth about

what you're both I mean, you're both

such interesting, brilliant people. And

I guess my question is what you know

when you think about Natasha and you

think about her in the world, a person

in the world like how how um how would

you how would you describe who Natasha

is as a person and a friend?

Jeremy, you want to start?

Um I would say she has more intellect in

her left pinky than most than most

departments of major universities have.

Um, she is truly the mo and and yet she

has this great ability of making you

feel like the biggest star ever, even at

your lowest. So, it's like wild

intelligence and wild generosity

combined into this sort of atomic bomb

of like the ideal friend.

That's so well said, Ronan. My sense as

kind of a a broken person from a broken

home in some ways myself is that that

runs very deep and you know you know her

deeply and so I I think you could ask

her about that on a profound level where

she is searching for a sense of family

and successfully creating it. I mean

that's that's the main thing that I

would add to this conversation. Natasha

for all the ways she's like riotously

fun and

eclectic in the things she does and the

people she surrounds herself with and

it's a wild ride being around her. She

also she is family to those dear to her

and like I I really became more deeply

close with her in a period of my life

where I was at a low point and she

didn't even really have a way of knowing

that but I was like profoundly broken

and lonely and all of a sudden we went

from being acquaintances to her being

like every night you know come dinner

time Jeremy's very familiar with this

you'll get a text from her being like

what are we doing who are we screwing

you know and then it's like Natasha 's

wild circus, you know, um is is off to

the races. A and through that

persistence and that kind of like lack

of traditional boundaries, she's not

indiscriminately that way, but when she

decides like, no, this this is a real

one and and I want to give them my

emotional space and time.

It's such a gift cuz she really like

pulled me out of a moment of isolation

and and gave me a meaningful sense of

family. And all of a sudden we went from

like zero to 11. 11 being like spending

the holidays together, you know, and I

was like bringing her to meet my family.

We were going on vacations sometimes

with Jeremy. It's it is a real gift and

it's something that I've learned from.

Like if you in our busy lives with all

these different distractions and things

going on that prevent reflection and

prevent deeper community sometimes, if

you can do what Natasha Leon does to the

people you love around you and just like

keep at them and make it happen, I think

that is actually the most meaningful way

we can form community in a time when we

really need it. We really need it

individually. We really need it as a

country. So Natasha's the answer to

everything in con see this is why it's

so annoying that you went second because

you're so like I would have bait mine

better had I known that you were going

to give literally a mini

yeah you know screw jar superficial

[ __ ] answer

the community building and

okay what you guys seem to be to her

tell me if I'm wrong is there's a very

fraternal energy with you and Natasha

like do you feel like her brother her

wife her lover her mother like where

where what if this is a family who are

you to her?

In the many group chats I'll give like

I'll I'll send that clip of Oprah

talking about Gail King where she's like

she is the mother I never had. She is

the sister everybody wants. She is the

friend none of us deserve. Like like she

is all of those things.

And that's why I think she's been the

ideal like you know sort of like u egg

donor for my future sperm. Um, which is

something Ron and I have fought over,

like who gets to take the Natasha eggs.

Um, I think that like, you know, in a

society where eugenics is coming back in

fashion, um, Natasha and I would make

super babies as would she and Ronin.

Oh so

that's so true. That is that's a future

Jeremy Natasha baby would be gorgeous.

Beautiful future world we can all

envision right now in our heads.

Amazing. Amazing. Also, I want to change

this podcast to just Jeremy walking

through the streets of New York and us

falling.

Wait, what's happening with your actress

while you're strolling?

So, sorry. Um, she's outside having a

cigarette with the director and I

thought they were

just pan to her just so we can see her.

Jeremy is

I can't she says yes. I can't let you

know. But

you've got to put a post-prouction kota

on this episode.

If we Yes, if we get her involved,

please. But for right now, we're just

going to change her face into a cat and

we'll we'll reveal it if she says yes.

Um, thank you both so so much. I you

know, I have to say that one of the

nicest things about this is the feedback

I get from guests who feel very seen and

loved when we ask people who love them

to join. So, I have no doubt that

Natasha is gonna be so thrilled that we

talked because like you said, she's a

connector and um I think she's just

going to just so so I thank you and on

behalf of Natasha, I thank you for for

jumping on today. I know you're both so

busy. Thank you so much.

I really love her. I hope I hope it was

helpful. Did her justice in whatever

small way I can cuz I she's important to

me. She's been a real lifeline to me.

Yeah, I love her too. I love her, too.

Thank you so much, Amy. You're the best.

Thank you so much, cutie.

Hand me this. Hand me the necklace,

honey. It's so tight.

It's so tight. And also, I want to put

it in That's what she said. If you want

to know anything about the history of

Russian doll, the tightest vaginas in

the game came together. We're with

Natasha Leon. She's joining us. Uh,

that's right.

You know, brief history of time. It's

like Stephen Hawkings. The universe

expands and contracts. And that's what

you need to know about women in Cind.

And nobody can get from vagina to

Stephven Hawking faster than Natasha

Leon. So Natasha Leon, you're here.

We have known each other

for um quite a while now. I would say

coming up on maybe 20 years in some

I would say maybe coming up on 30, which

is an exercise I'm not proud to have

recently done with our friend Clea

Duval. Uh

you know, Clea directs this season. Last

season she played my sister. She's my

best friend. a big crush on Polar uh and

uh forever and uh rightfully so. Put me

in a sandwich. Everyone's married. Uh

that's not how it works, guys.

Fantasy. Uh so, but so Clea is uh

directs the season. Does a great job. Uh

no spoilers, but she does direct Method

Man, who's my favorite. No offense. Uh

fantastic. I mean, I mean, we have the

same sense of humor.

The guest list on that show is

incredible. I have a an image of you, a

memory of you coming by UCB and of

course I knew who you were and I have

this image of you being like at the time

feeling like you were seeming and

presenting quite shy like

Mhm.

gentle and shy like we didn't really I

was stoned.

Oh yeah.

I don't smoke pot anymore.

Um and I was probably drunk and I also I

haven't had a drink in 20 years. Yeah,

but I'm thinking about it today.

So we met, do you remember when we first

met?

Um, so our friend, so Jake Fognest, so I

was like 16.

You were 16 then?

I was 16 and Jake Fogst was 16.

Wow.

When I was 15, uh, he's very popular

now. Have you heard of Woody Allen?

Uh, okay. So I did this film uh, called

Everyone Says I Love You. Woody Allen

was my dad. Goldie Han was my mother. I

finally felt seen thanks to that onset

tutor. I discovered the surrealist

movement, Apocalypse Now, Heart of

Darkness.

I I mean, so many things changed through

that tutor. Anyway, I was 15, left

behind with a guardian because my mom

was well. Uh

and so I lived underneath uh or on the,

you know, ground floor, so I guess

adjacent to Curry in a Hurry, uh which

is on 28th in Lexington.

And uh this woman, she was a criminal

attorney. Her name was Ruth. She worked

uh at an office with Jake Fowl's dad as

criminal attorneys at law. I'm guessing

it was called uh and for some reason it

was like oh both these kids are like 15

16 and Jake had that show

on was it MTV?

He had like an MTV show where he was

like a young fan interviewing like the

Beasty Boys.

Yeah. Bork.

Yep. He had a really good guest. And

Jake is a really sweet, tender, learned

guy who like liked a lot of things and

liked showing that he was enthusiastic

about a lot of things and was a writer

and creator at a young age.

And so sort of the basis for Wayne's

World if you've ever seen. So Wayne's

World is about these two guys. Uh and

but he was kind of the basis of that

like you know a sort of a um public

broad what public access

public access show in his mom's bedroom

as a kid. So, he's sort of like this,

you know, young prodigy. I was doing

this movie. We were introduced.

And the point is is that Jake was a

comedy. Like I was never a comedy nerd.

I would say I'm still not, frankly. I

just uh but he was sort of my gateway

drug. Uh

um and so he was the one that knew about

UCB. He was the one that was bringing me

to SNL. Uh and

I think that I was about 16.

Wow. So you were 16. Yeah. cuz I do

remember a a a sweet and you know like a

a yeah a younger quieter version of you

then and it was I remember you coming

around with these big eyes and like

observing a lot of stuff that was

happening there and being very sharp and

funny and everyone loving your work

already and you but you being um

uh like just even back then where when

you're in the room people want

head towards you like moth to flame. You

have a electricity about you and you did

then and I remember that

and you're really taking me back like

I'm pausing and taking us to McManus.

Right.

I want to take a minute because I

remember that and also it was like it it

takes me back to a much younger time

too. We were like I we were only a few

years apart but it felt like a long we

were we were I don't know. I felt like

an old older

because to me you felt like just this

rock star just because first of all I've

never been a stage person. So figure

I've been you know acting since I'm

four. I just turned 21. Uh 46. And uh so

at that point I had been a child actor.

I'd been on Peace Playhouse.

Yeah.

Very famously. I was Dennis the Menace's

babysitter and Dennis the Menace. Okay.

Not that famous. Christopher Lloyd

Walterm were there. uh didn't know who I

was. Uh Smoker. Uh and you know, so I'm

just saying I always say this to like

Christina Richi or McCauley Falcon. I'm

like, "Yeah, but you guys were child

stars. I was a child character actor."

I see. Yeah, that is. You're right. That

is different.

Yeah. So, I wasn't really like exposed

at that level, but emotionally the kind

of tether that we all have or Haley Joel

is this season and poker face peacock

may uh so he is also a child star.

There's like this unspoken way that we

look at each other in the eyes and we're

just like, I know that you have been

alert and awake

since you were 4 years old and so have I

so specific.

It's eerie.

Cuz it's like that means I was doing the

family taxes at 12 years old.

I was like, you know, there's a lot that

goes along with that.

Yeah.

Of paying the bills, being alert,

knowing how to like present

Yeah.

to adults.

Yeah. There's a big price to pay for

that and also access that you get at an

age that you may or may not be ready

for.

It's a long way of saying by the time

I'd seen you on stage doing like Ascat,

I was in shock just because my life had

been like I'd done 60 commercials and

I'd been for three seconds on screen and

as the world turns, you know, some

episodes of PB Playhouse, some weird

movies I made, you know, but like you

just bound it up there. Even your show

recently with Tina, it's sort of this

thing that I was just like, what is this

activity? Because I was not a theater

person. I've never taken an acting

lesson, you know what I mean? So, it was

like, what is this weird like athletic

sport of confidence where it's just

so much running?

Well, it's just that it's inside of you.

Like, I think I learned so much from you

and from Fred about that. um this like

abundance idea of an endless supply

probably I think that you guys get from

um dress rehearsal at SNL where you

throw out genius ideas and just move on

to the next day instead of lingering on

something like a diary entry. Oh my god,

I wrote a sentence. Yes, it's funny you

say that. I do feel that one of the

things about that training is you

you you can't believe that your your

good idea is your last good idea and in

fact

throwing it away is like a power move to

remind you that the next good idea is

right behind it. You cannot get too

precious about anything and you get

athletic in terms of like practicing

coming up with an idea cuz I I'm at a

point now I don't know about you but I

feel like sometimes we make the idea

king and I'm much more into people and

process. I think an idea is what it is.

It's it can be shined to be this

beautiful idea. It can be totally dull

in the wrong hands. But an idea is not

as important a concept is not as

important as people in process for me. I

I hear you like and it's so much so that

um in that whole exercise they do in

pitch meetings of why now or something

or like what's it about? It's kind of

like hey babe just so you know Amy and I

could make a show right now about this

pair of sunglasses. It doesn't [ __ ]

matter. And the reason why now is

because whatever where you and I are at

in this moment emotionally that we're

is, you know, saucy for us or to use

your word, juicy,

right,

will make this pair of sunglasses go

live on that story. And, you know, it's

but it's it's but a prop for our kind of

inner

nowness or something of what we find

interesting. And it'll be filmed in

either black and white or color or you

know on 16 or the AI generate. Who gives

a [ __ ] Like it's really going to be

about where we're at emotionally. It's

not actually it's all in the execution

and the human beings that you're doing

it with. It's not actually the idea.

That's right. When you talk about young

TSH, can you give me a little like a

snapshot of young Natasha on in New York

City walking around? like what did it

look like when you were 7 8 n walking

around? What did what did your New York

look like? Where were you? She's

thinking to herself and this is where I

get mixed up. Okay, because I couldn't

tell you if I've seen too many movies

dusted, not on PCP, on dust. Have you

guys ever just tried raw dust? You go to

the film forum, you just put your

fingers along the the side of the seat

and you just wave it gently in your

periphery.

Just dust. New York dust. Man, that's

just New York pure dust. It's not even

It's not even a Have you guys ever

snorted either? It's crazy. So anyway, I

couldn't tell you.

Okay, if it was Dairo and Taxi Driver or

it was me in Time Square as a

seven-year-old is what I'm trying to

say. Amy Polar,

I want to But I remember being left

behind at various castings. In my mind,

there's this uh alcoholic figure. Let's

call him dad. Uh, and I I'm there. I'm

at an audition or like, you know, I was

a child model. That's probably why I

pose so well. Now,

there we get to it.

I was a Ford model at like six. Okay.

Later I moved to close-ups. Um, I

remember him casting rooms in Midtown.

Also, my mother.

Mhm.

Uh Paul Rubin uh so lovingly said to me

when he took me to a steak dinner in the

valley after rehab. Uh he said to me,

oh, don't worry about it. I was never

shocked when things went south. You're

going to be okay. Uh but it was

inevitable. You got to remember I met

your mother. Uh so it was a real comfort

for me that there was a witness to that

time in my life. Mhm.

The only other one I really have is I

guess I have I have Gabby Hoffman and

Natalie Portman and Lucas Hus because uh

they were also in that Woody Allen movie

where already I had um a a guardian,

right?

And by the way, my mom is awesome and so

is my dad. Like they're they're really

like

brainy wonderful people. I would just

say that the big discovery of modern

times is we have treated versus

untreated mental health addiction

whatever. Like now that's that's the

revelation. And it's like there's no

shame in whatever your mental health or

you know addiction or whatever else.

It's about you know are you treated or

untreated like are you experiencing a

cycle of shame where you refuse to get

help for it

or are you doing your best you know in

the day you're in one day at a time to

kind of address it. I just think they

didn't know. Like honestly, I think it

was the 80s. There was a lot of cocaine

around. Uh and I just think that was the

best they could do, you know? I forgive

them for it.

Cut to the end of the story. I do recall

a lot of me in Midtown sort of like I'd

go into the audition or the modeling

casting commercial or uh print. And when

I came out, sort of like where are they?

You know what I mean? sort of like

walking around Midtown and this is where

I can't remember if it's me or Dairo and

Taxi Driver. I now it's such a cleaned

up hood with Disney

back then there was a lot of

it was a lot of stuff.

So I remember being kind of like street

wise.

Yeah.

Cuz like if you just sort of you had to

you know kids we didn't have cell

phones. Uh

we didn't even necessarily know how to

use a uh yellow pages. Uh you just had

to sort of like know how to kind of sit

still and have a sense of where they

might reappear,

right? And and be big and small at the

same time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And know how to like There's this uh

Dairo quote that I read about getting

recognized in New York. He's like, "I'm

a professional. If I want to get

recognized and I need a seat at a

restaurant, I just, you know, put on my

Dairo face, throw my shoulders back, and

I'm a famous guy. And if I want to walk

through Manhattan and have some peace of

mind, I just disappear into myself and I

become part of the wall, you know? Yeah.

So, for some reason, that really

resonated with me. And I think

even as a kid, I sort of learned how to

do that of sort of like I need help

versus I'm in Midtown Manhattan, so I

need to disappear into myself. Yeah.

So, you know, there's no human

trafficking.

Yes. Yes. essentially

it, you know, so we do this thing on the

show where we talk to people before our

guest comes

who may know them or like be fans of

theirs or have some, you know,

experience being in their lives to kind

of like talk well behind their back and

they also give me questions. Um, they

think I should ask you. So,

um,

we spoke to Ronan

and Jeremy

just about an hour ago.

Okay.

About you. Uh,

oh.

Did they tell you that I tried to get

shaman from both of them because I had a

fantasy about having 13 children?

They're fighting over your eggs

currently. They both know. Good luck.

Congrats, by the way.

By the way,

but wait, so Ronan and Jeremy,

of course, and they dearly, dearly love

you. Um, as do I. And we talked a lot

about how um you have this uh way in

which you um

bring people together, right? you really

want uh to uh create a a group a a

family in the way you bring people

together and

you know Ronan wanted me to ask you

which is like do you like do you feel

that way like you're collecting family

when you bring people into your life? Uh

so just to say like yeah because I have

this uh wacky family of origin story

where like I mean yeah just you know the

facts are they just simply don't exist.

You know what I mean? Like I uh they

exist in my mind's eye harrowing

degrees. Uh you and I made a whole show

about it. Um

Jeremy and I recently uh finished a

script. Derio Harris uh and and I

recently uh he's a very uh the most Tony

nominated playwright.

Incredible.

Yeah. And uh anyway, we just finished

something and I was like, "Holy [ __ ]

fiction, you know, we were and I was

like I because you and I have spent so

much time sort of

and I I've spent so much time doing

self-reerential bits." Uh but

what did that feel like to write some

story, a fictional story?

It was incredible. like when I sent it

out to, you know, when I sent the email

out, I was like sitting at home and I

was texting Chloe and uh it was like 4

in the morning. So, she was up with uh

Vana, you know, in New York at 7:00 a.m.

for her. Me, I was in the middle of the

night. My hands were cramped. I was had

like full carpal tunnel. And I uh you

know, of course, it's a there's a few of

you guys that really changed my life.

It's like you and Norah Efron and uh

Genji Cohen and uh um uh Cindy Holland

and like these kind of like powerhouse

women that just sort of like appeared

in, you know, the top of act two of my

life and said, "Listen, [ __ ] you're a

writer."

Uh you know, you're a world builder.

Let's go. And I was like, "No, no, no."

Uh so Nora and I were very close. You

know, I did her uh play poker together

and stuff like that. But my hands and I

looked and I was texting Chloe and I was

like, I think maybe I just sort of

morphed into a type of Nora because I

kicked out this, you know, fiction pilot

that Jeremy and I wrote together, but it

was like I was in Los Angeles alone with

a dog in bed at like 400 a.m. just kind

of as a showrunner person kind of

correcting typos and synthesizing and

you know making sure it was ready to get

PDFed.

Yeah.

And I could feel my hands and I was like

the spirit of Nora was sort of in me in

that moment of I because remember how

she was like this I never met Nora.

You never met her?

No. What was she like? I would have

loved I know I would have loved

she was a real Amy Polar.

What a nice thing to say. Tosh. I mean,

Nora was I like revolutionary.

Um,

you know, she I remember uh so my first

gig Heartburn.

Mhm.

I'm just a you know, an extra asleep on

a lap. Maybe Jangos and Mel Street are

getting married or something. That means

Mike Nichols picked me from a p was a

big deal in my house. Uh no lines. Uh,

and then about, uh, maybe when I was

like 30, so that was probably I was

four. When I was 30, uh, Dileia Efron

and and Nora wrote this, uh, show called

Love, Lost, and What I Wore. And I said

to them in Midtown in one of these

offices, I was like, "Hi, Dillia. Hi,

Nora. I'm not really sure what the play

is. I'm not a big theater guy, although

I've seen Amy and Ashcat on stage and

but really I'm having some relationship

problems and I feel like you guys might

be able to help if that's okay. They

did. I broke up with that guy and Norah

said to me, "Nat, I know you're in

heartburn, but have you ever read it?"

And she handed me a copy and I was like,

"Holy Toledo, who is this human being?"

beyond this sort of image of sort of

clean, you know, comprehens

like being reminded of how much Nora put

herself in that story like really let us

in really let us into her at a time when

those kind of characters felt paper

thin. like she was like gut a blood and

guts character in that piece was so

amazing to read it again.

It was just so so it totally like was

like a tectonic plate shifting moment

and also what like I'm somebody who's

always had this weird chip on my

shoulder that I need to shake it's no

longer serving around like being a tough

guy or being bad or cursing. That's

really me being

you know I'm just nervous. I'm just

you know an introvert extrovert kind of

weirdo who's like making it up as I go.

a lifelong improviser with no training,

winging it, you know what I mean? And

kind of like relying on the people that

I'm like, you know, are like a drowning

man sees as a life preserver. Like, who

the [ __ ] is Amy Polar? Like, I think

that's safe, you know what I mean? Um,

and so for me, like, you know, Nora was

God, I just she's a giant

and she was safe. She was safe for you.

It was also that it changed my worldview

around

um so like I'm a scholarship kid on the

upper east side like so the family had

some money then they lost it then by the

time it's me and my mom like alone you

know she's divorced now on the upper

east side and I'm yeah uh 10 uh I'm

going to this private school on the

upper east side but we're in like the

wrong side of the track sort of I'm not

sure if you're familiar with the film

called Slums of Beverly Hills I might be

in it but uh in Manhattan uh It takes

place in Los Angeles. In Manhattan, you

also have like on the upper east side,

the good apartments are the ones on like

Park Avenue and like within this space

that's really rarified air.

Uh in the fringes of it though, you have

other people there. So, I had this beef

with Nora because I imagined her as like

real upper east side. She retrained my

mind to understand that no kid she would

be uh she would say to me like just stay

in the house and call the housekeeper

smoke outside. She would remind me that

her parents were screenwriters. Oscar

Levant who's extraordinary Google uh you

know he was the neighbor like that

the the history of um

complex humanity is so embedded into the

DNA and the fabric of like every single

individual on this earth you know let

alone every person that presents well

on camera or something. It really healed

something, I think, to have her take me

under, you know, Rojo would say to me

back then, like, you're not um you're

not the uh irregular sheets on in the

discount bin at Bed Bath and Beyond. You

know what I mean?

Like, not to be married to that. Ty Daly

would say to me on that production,

don't be a part of The Walking Wounded,

you know, be a foot soldier. like

let go of the story that there's some

sort of inner brokenness that you must

heal that you must be constantly

apologizing for by being chaotic or

taking up space or being confused. You

know, you're not running on time. Oh my

all this kind of stress and anxiety that

manifests in these ways that people

don't understand

like you Nora, you know what I mean?

Like these kind of like tethers for me

of it's also okay to be sane and yeah

successful and well. Yes. And boy were

we sane successful and well when we did

Russian Doll,

right? I mean ish, you know, and I would

say that we were insane in all the right

ways. Like

I think that's a good way to say it. I

mean, we did a show called Old Soul,

which was kind of like a straightforward

sitcom based on loosely based on the

idea that kind of what you were talking

about is that at the time you were

feeling like you were surrounded by

older people who were who you were

learning something from, who were kind

of like surrounding you and taking care

of you and you felt like an old soul and

that was an idea that we made a show

that didn't go but what a cast in that

show. If we can just talk about it, tell

it. Okay, if I can remember, it was

Ellen Buren.

Mhm.

Richard Benjamin, Fred Willard, Rita

Moreno,

Mara Gibbs,

Mara Gibbs,

and Greta Lee.

Gre the great Greta Lee.

Yeah.

Um

Nikki Cat Cruel with a little cameo.

Yes. And Nick.

Nick Thun. And

it was so And I remember that

experience. It was kind of like, you

know, one of the many times when you're

doing this job, you have a heartbreak of

like,

is the is it going to go? Is it going

the way it's supposed to go? Are we

feeling the way we're supposed to feel?

But I remember

you working with you on that was the

beginning of me realizing a couple

things. First, that you can do almost

anything. You are able to produce and

write and direct. You also are you have

this thing that the camera the camera

just loves you, Natasha. like it want it

it I guess when I talk about an

electricity that you have it the camera

is like mommy the camera's like there's

my mommy there's my mommy um so watching

you perform was incred I was a was a an

actor a lesson in acting and um and then

just said I wanted to do more I wanted

to work with you more again and then we

kind of cannibalized that idea a little

bit but just kept talking about the

bigger ideas of of what it's like to

kind of feel like you live your life

over and over again or if you get the

kind of reset what would you do with it

and what does that feel like and and

yeah tell people if what you remember

about those beginning days of Russian

doll um to synthesize I guess somewhat

uh it's interesting

that the way I remember uh old soul

into Russian

is

okay we knew each other for we met each

other around this Ascant time, right? I

sort of saw you. You were like this tiny

little giant with the funniest, sexiest

like hot little blonde number who was

just a freak. Like so [ __ ] funny. Amy

Polar. Jesus Christ, you know, so quick

and nimble and like a real like an

Olympian, like an acrobat, you know,

because it was just the way you throw

yourself around that stage and come up

with new ideas all at once. And then of

course SNL all those years backstage but

just kind of not that tight. We saw each

other at some premiere at MoMA.

We kind of had a laugh. Next day you

call me. I'm in bed watching NYPD Blue.

Falling in love with Dennis France. No,

the phone's never ringing. And you say,

"As long as I've known you've always

been the oldest girl in the world.

Should we make a show about it?" Sure.

Old soul. And then the way I remember it

is when that didn't go, we were crushed.

Yeah. And we got into a car and I

remember I think I was driving the

windows were rolled up. I was chain

smoking and you didn't like that. And

you said

I still don't

Natasha I know the show didn't go. It's

really hard but picture for picture if

you will my body. No picture picture for

a moment. Imagine there was no network.

There were no rules. There was no

anything.

What is the show that we would really

want to make? What's the story we would

really want to tell if we left all that

aside, assuming we could do anything

anywhere? And that that's how we started

getting to this idea of you could go to

the same party over and over again. You

could take everybody home thinking that

something outside of self would heal

you, would change you, would fix you. Uh

but no matter which iteration of this

sort of exterminating angel uh Benwell

reference journey you would take or the

Doug Hoffet version would be I'm a

strange loop or whatever uh parallel

path you would still find yourself at

home with you and your unresolved stuff

if you didn't really face it head on and

the real goal of Russian doll is you had

always described it as it was the search

for the littlest doll inside of you that

is the truth of who you are.

Then we do Russian Doll. Big hit. What a

hit.

What a hit. How fun.

What a hit. Wasn't

remember the Emmys Day? Oh my gosh. All

those nominations after all that work.

So fun. I mean, I got to tell you

something. I haven't been on a I've

never been on a show that was a hit in

real time. I've been in a show that was

a slow like, oh that's people love that.

It was a slow climb and I've been on a

lot of things that didn't pop. And I've

been in films that I felt like I added

and contributed to but didn't really

feel like was truly something that felt

like I was a major part of. And to be on

a show that is a hit is I recommend.

Yo, strong recommend.

Parade is wild. And the idea that that

was the thing that people responded to

was shocking.

Like, you know, yeah, American Pie was

the number one movie in the world or

something. It didn't feel like it was

that close to the bone. It wasn't like

I'm telling you about, you know, trauma

and mommy issues and [ __ ] I don't

know, being self-destructive and wanting

to take yourself out in this life. And

the need to move from a nihilistic lens

that's placed on you through an

epigenetic footprint that is the road

map of each human being that one must

forgive themselves for that may lead to

sort of nihilistic self-obsessed

behavior that's self-destructive

transitioning into connection with

another human being who's probably a

stranger through like a small act of

kindness, you know, in a big city. and

that that's the solution to your sort of

metaphorical

dying over and over again, insanity

defined, you know, making the same

mistakes, thinking you're going to have

a different outcome.

Shocking that that's what connected.

Mhm.

And it was funny,

hard fun. I mean the that feeling too I

just have to like contextualize

that was a time precoid

um when Netflix was uh taking I think

big chances and real chances on full

season orders and artists and being like

yeah I like your um I like the package

that you got. I like I like I trust you

Amy. I trust you Natasha. I trust you

Leslie Hedland. you're coming in with an

idea here like make it and go more than

that. I think it was algorithmically it

was like Leslie Hedlin uh was it

sleeping with other people that were

something was um also uh like her movies

combined with parks and wreck combined

with I guess Orange is the New Black

when you put it through that at the time

sauce yielded this is the budget for

this many episodes. It's going to be a

lowbudget thing whatever you want to

make. It just so happened that what we

wanted to make was you know quantum

physics comedy uh and Uh, so we did.

Now you you when you you you just

brought up quantum physics. You're

probably the only person I know who

reads quantum physics book. Only actor I

know anyway who reads quantum physics

quite regularly.

I'm assuming that can't be true. But I

do uh I am a uh yeah, I do find it very

relaxing. It's sort of how I quiet the

mind. I love uh

things I don't understand. And over time

uh I've even begun to understand uh you

know some

you know like small concepts or

something like a double slit experiment

is very much the kind of concept behind

why Charlie and Nadia you know die at

the same time all the time like these

are sort of for the one or two people

listening who don't know what the double

slit experiment is what is it

uh yeah I think it's just it's

essentially the concept about what is

the fabric of the universe Right? Like,

are we here? You've done acid. You're

Amy Fuller. Uh you're the listeners at

home. You've all done LSD or micro

doing. I know what young people are into

today with their

uh mushrooms and chocolates and candy

bars and gummies and whatnot. Uh but

with that little feeling that you have,

are we here?

Yeah. Or even like what is, you know, a

deep sleepm state? What what what's

going on, right? Like

what the hell is going on? or when you

close your eyes real tight and you open

them and there's all little particles

and stuff and it's a little bit trippy

or weird

or a real pedantic version of that is

like deja vu just that is

what is deja vu right so a lot of people

are basically after the same question

which is what is this fabric of the

universe or this sort of unseen thing

that we don't can't comprehend like are

we in multiple timelines is it you know

um AI I so advanced now that it's

scraped all of our data against our will

that it's actually running tests and

simulations on that to actually figure

out in this sort of paperclip sort of

experiment type of thing of you know

endless iterations to discover which

world we should be in for a positive

outcome. Like is any of it real? The

bottom line is in a day-to-day basis it

just doesn't [ __ ] matter if any of

this stuff exists or not because it's

basically you still got to pay your

bills. You still have responsibilities.

You got to show up. You got to [ __ ]

take a shower, you know, and you got to

like be a person. So, you can't get so

lost in space. But emotionally, for the

purposes of Russian doll, it was really

about, you know, this dual timeline kind

of thing, right? Then Nadia and uh Allan

were fractured in or in season 2, it's

kind of about this sort of a quantum

leaping, right? And it's uh Carlo Realli

poses the question, why can I remember

my past but I can't remember my future?

So, you know, we used it in a

storytelling device as would I be able

to forgive the experience that was

grandfathered into me traumatically

if I had a day to walk in their shoes

and understand that, you know, my parent

came by it honestly. It wasn't on

purpose, that damage done. But all these

ideas about sort of like healing and

science and sort of connection and the

idea that two different individuals

could exist in two different timelines

but be having a similar experience

because they're tethered by something

unknown that's connecting them and

binding them is still also part of this

idea of what we're talking about of like

creating family and all this kind of

stuff of even when you and I are not

together because we're busy. I know you

exist and it feels like a you know thank

god you know something like that.

You know, listening to you is like

watching a symphony. Like the way you

talk is like uh a bunch of instruments

playing together. You you have the

highest aptitude for talking of almost

anyone I've ever met. You're very good

at talking.

Thanks, Amy. It's not my real tongue.

You got you got a tongue transplant?

Um do you uh would you ever own a robot

in your house? Um,

and if you did, what would you hope it

did for you?

Let me think. So, it depends. Um,

I guess like,

you know, my the first thing that comes

to mind actually, the only thing I've

been thinking about since you asked, uh,

is root beer, my dog. So, I'm like, how

is it helping root beer? Is it soft?

Does root beer love it?

Root beer is now 15, which is weird.

Wow.

I'm somebody that always thinks I'm

going to be like, you know, dying any

second. And, uh, even root beer is 15.

And for people who don't know, Root Beer

is what kind of dog?

A multi-poo.

Yeah.

A Rottweiler.

Yeah. I'm Rottweiler at heart. I

tell people.

Yeah. And Root Beer um is really Rubar's

15.

Wow.

It's wild. Yeah. Cuz I'm like, she's

even old for people years, let alone dog

years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you have a sense of when um you you

like a lot of your work deals with

death? You're very open about thinking

about it. You meditated. meditate on it

a lot more than people I know. Do you

have a sense of when you'll die?

Later today. Oh, good.

Well, then let's get let's let's finish

up.

I can't tell if it's going to be, you

know, I mean, like that's what's so

weird about the existential threat of

AI. A lot of this stuff really is just

from um you know, all the Russian doll

deep dive research that I was doing

along the way. And you know, I'd be

sending you articles in all hours of the

night. Yeah.

Uh you got to see this one. You know, is

it a simulation, Amy? Uh, and

I mean, and I'm always like, I think so.

I think so. And I'm like, there's a joke

in here, right? You're a professional.

Where's the joke?

And I'm like, yeah. I mean, it it it to

your point like it that the it's like

you have to like get into the heaviness

of it and then

life is a dream and nothing matters. You

have to constantly flip back and forth

between those two things.

Yeah.

To get through the day.

I think so. Uh, so

what do you do? What do you do to get

through the day that isn't like where

you're using a ton of brain? Like so

I've been asking people like what is the

thing right now in these times with

everything is quite heavy. What do you

do to check out to zone out to like what

do you watch or listen to? What do you

what do you do?

So you know I have a swimming pool and

I'm a swimmer. You've seen the swimmer

with Bert Lancaster. I uh I swim uh and

also like you know I I do some kind of

like meditate like when I wake up I kind

of

Do you meditate

a little bit you know like I've done the

TM course and but I'll just sort of sit

there and I'll kind of like zone out

look at the trees watch root beer run

around you know what I mean and then do

some laps and then if it's a more sporty

day you know there might be some you

know ree you know Brianino involved

depending like you and catching a vibe

that way.

Um,

when you're swimming, can I ask you more

questions about swimming? When you're

swimming, what's going through your

head?

I think a lot lately about I I'm I'm

just a big science, I guess. So, I think

a lot about how weird it is that we're

animals, so I think a lot about how

weird it is that like I'm like, "This is

so amphibian." I like those are my

thoughts when I'm I'm like, "What's

going on right here? What is this move?"

And they call it a breaststroke. And

then I'll go over here and I'm thinking

about Busby Berkeley or you know how uh

back in the 90s I used to say to Chateau

Marmmont and Ann Meera of uh Mirror and

Stiller you know she'd be there and she

and I would do jokes where we would swim

be like isn't LA funny? Look at us

swimming like two Busby Berkeley number

you know girls and we would try to try

to do synchronized swimming but it was

me and Anna we didn't succeed. That's

not captured anywhere. like and so I'll

think about that while I'm and I it's

weird they caught a breast stroke and so

what if some people do what do you do to

storytelling so but your mind is still

going there your mind even when you're

swimming your mind is going what when

does your mind I would say that it's uh

uh oh probably you know sport [ __ ] uh

so sex uh so I would say why I'm such a

I'm always you know saying right like

hey guys like cuz I think you know sex

is a very uh people like to really um

you know consider it and give all this

meaning to it. I'm a little bit more

German than all that. It turns out not

German at all. But I think it's like

there's a there's a physical we are

animals

is important sort of like medically to

quiet the mind through a third activity

that reminds us you know sports

essentially is what I mean you know

athletics the double slit theory the

double [ __ ] theory uh and so you know I

would just say that swimming and you

know sexing

sexing

uh and

so body stuff

body stuff is what gets you what what

pulls you in. I I relate like that idea

of like feeling grounded in your own

body.

Yeah. When do you But do you have it in

other ways?

Yeah. I I I I relate to this feeling

sometimes when I'm living in my head

like I need a like pressure like

physical pressure whether it's like work

swimming or like physical touch

something that like reminds me to get

back into my body.

Yeah. Like and it's also like oh the big

one obviously like the reason that I you

know I'm so in in love with you and Fred

Maya whatever has really always been

about um laughing

that hard

is an outer I'm tell you're talking to

somebody who's done every drug in the

history of the world including dust at

the film forum I just got New York side

of the seat dust

and it's shocking

yeah that literally like hard laughing

where you will forget where you are and

go to a third space like I'm saying

where you're just like is this even

[ __ ] the fabric of reality? I don't

even remember. I can't remember what I

was pissed off about.

Yes. Yes. Yes. I hear you. It is um

major.

It's major. It's major medicine.

Major.

Yeah.

Sometimes I'm like I'll laugh hard and

I'll be like, "Oh my gosh, I thought I

was depressed. I just haven't been

doubled over laughing in like, you know,

a week.

What happened?

When's the last time you've laughed

really hard? What have you laughed at

hard lately?

Well I

What are you laughing at right now?

What's making you laugh?

I had this uh hang recently.

Uh Joe Lennon's a you know, a musician

and an old friend of mine and he said,

"Come meet this polymath." Uh and uh

then uh you know I went home and uh well

gentlemen and uh he was there and then

we kind of dissected the polymaths the

quote unquote polymaths theories about

uh the universe

and we sort of were able to break them

down to like a moment in time where he

developed a resentment against a science

program and that that's what his sort of

theory of everything was based on we

were doubled over laughing so hard.

You you observed something about someone

in real time that you were Yeah.

And we were just laughing so hard

because the idea that it was sort of

couched and you know out here we meet a

lot of people that are you I love your

when you say enough with the geniuses.

Too many geniuses. Talk about that

please.

The word genius is thrown around a lot.

Yeah.

And it is it's oppressive. The word

genius is oppressive. I mean, and it's

kind of

and also it's used primarily for men,

you know. Um, I I would say like maybe

double up on calling women geniuses and

maybe dial it back a little bit,

but I think you also say that like

enough with the geniuses. Sometimes

people just need to get to work because

geniuses have like absolutely

self kind of like you know obsessed

concepts or whatever and you know like

well concept yeah concepts don't pay you

know concepts don't pay the bills.

They don't get pen to paper. You got to

kick out a draft babe.

That's right. And I mean you like you

you can't you can sit in your think tank

forever but you know like chop chop. You

got to make something and you got to

fail.

Yes.

You got to you got to get out there and

try.

Okay.

I got one more question for you. I love

you so much. Love you so much forever.

Um but I got one more question. We

should talk about poker face.

What a what a what a gift that you're

doing this cuz it means that we get to

hang out. I mean really that's

that was my favorite thing about today

is I get to see you.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, that's what's

so funny about growing up and, you know,

being these show people. I think that

over time we learn unless you're making

something with your friends. Yeah. You

really don't get to see him.

No, that's why I work is so that I can

see my friends.

Also, I get a real boner in a non weird

way. I know you're a taken. You're

spoken for, ma'am. Uh, but you know, I

get the platonic boner when I see you on

set with like your [ __ ] what are

these called? Your earbuds or some [ __ ]

call them cans.

Oh, canes. There's a real term for them.

And you know, directing, producing, like

I love seeing, you know, and I I love

direct. I love being at the

I want to talk about powers and watching

my friends do it, I'm like, "Oh, this is

who you are." J Nixon Bravo. You know

what I mean?

When you directed Poker Face, tell me

about that experience because it's so

great. You're such You're incredible in

it. And you What was your experience

directing on that show?

Uh,

and in general, what's your experience?

How much do you like it? Yeah. I mean, I

I I love directing. I know you do, too.

Yeah. What What What do you love about

it?

It just feels like

I'm in my right place. Like my feet are

where they're supposed to be.

And if you're asking me about like what

quiets my mind, it is I don't know if

it's the same for you, but it is like

that's when I hear the click. So much is

happening that is so in the present

moment

that finally I'm like in my body and

hear the click. And they also when

you're an actor they're kind of like do

you need to pee pee? And when you're a

direct and you're always just like like

uh I'm in my 40s like I think if I had

to pee oh now that you mention it I'm in

my 40s I totally got to pee. Uh sure.

Thanks for reminding me. Uh but when

you're a director nobody says you have

to pee pee. And when you go pee pee they

don't say are you going to come back?

They know you're coming back.

you're making the movie and when you're

at the moni, you know, when you're an

actor, you're kind of sitting there and

you're like, why is everyone so

stressed? I'm a codependent. I can feel

it. I'm like an empathy guy. I can read

a room. But when you're behind the

monitor, you're like, I know why we're

stressed. It's because we're looking at

the oneliner for tomorrow with the first

AD and so and so missed their connecting

flight, you know, out of Austin. So,

it's not

Is it as simple as control?

Because what you're talking about is

like feeling like you got to hand over

your control to other people or be able

to be in control of like how you shape

your day, your project, your own

experience, the time you get to go to

the bathroom. I think that that's this

weird ancillary bonus. Mhm.

I think that for me what it's really

about is like being this like 360 like

film making machine that is actually

getting involved like lenses and camera

positions and angles and what's in the

frame and what's not in the frame and

what is the actor doing and how we need

to on the fly change that line of

dialogue to reflect that or because

we're running out of light so therefore

we're going to reposition this whole

thing and it's like I just feel so

no like I feel like 360 activated at

like what I was like made to do. Yeah.

As a kind of yes, it is in control as

like a conductor, but it's a conductor

of like a frame.

And it's also that like,

you know, I think what I I I hate being

a I don't like being famous. I think

it's whack. Like I I'm just saying I've

been a character actor for a New York

character actor for like, you know, 40

years and then like famous for six. It's

super [ __ ] weird. Like people treat

you all like you're a some like I'm a

I'm a person. I'm just winging it too.

But when you're a director, you're with

what's amazing about Pokerface

especially is like I am with the crew.

Like I know it's like you know me and

you know Rob Harlo the dolly grip we're

making the show together. Like I [ __ ]

love that dude because the cast is all

rotating. So they're the cast is

rotating, directors are rotating, write

writers are rotating. So it just feels

like I'm one with the camera as I should

be and really discovered that directing

in Russian no a real piece comes over my

body where I'm like inside of the

material as an artist

instead of sort of sitting outside of it

waiting for somebody to tell me you know

this child you did a good job or not.

It's kind of like

it's very alive like I start walking

like Charlie Chaplan because it's so

many things are happening at once and

it's very funny.

How do you feel when you do it?

I that's exactly you you said it

beautifully which is the idea of like

the idea of being in community in

creativity creativity in community is

what directing feels like. It feels like

you're you're um people are looking to

you to have answers, but the answers lie

within all the people making the piece.

That's it.

And it's really fun. Like I know the

thing is is that acting is so lonely.

Like yes,

Cle and I used to do this funny thing.

She was dating a a drummer. Uh she

living in Tanga. She had like six wiener

dogs, wiener dogs. Uh but you know her

girlfriend at the time would be in there

drumming, practicing for the band. And

Cle and I would sit out there with those

wiener dogs and the penguin. be like,

"So, [ __ ] we're actors. How come we

don't get to do band practice? Should we

jam? Should we act?" Uh, that's what's

so weird about acting and writing, you

know, at least in draft, not in the

room. They're they're very lonely sport.

That's right.

But directing is a team sport. I I

cannot wait for Poker Face. I cannot

wait for that new season. I love

watching you act. I love watching I love

listening to your brain. I love seeing

you in person. I love being around you,

Tosh.

I love being I miss you, too, bud. And I

and I love being part of the the weather

system that is you. I love being able to

be get close to you any chance I I can.

I'm always so ashamed as if it's a

series of weather reports and like the

big event in life is to just be like,

you know, no waves at all.

No waves. And also, I want you to know I

kept this necklace safe the entire time

cuz I was nervous about it being going

missing. But here it is for you. That's

so crazy cuz you're uh known klepto

mania rack. Ma'am,

I didn't replace it with like fake

diamonds while we were talking or

anything. I would never do that.

That's a weird move.

Um I love you, Tashi.

I love you, Amy.

Thanks for doing this. Thanks for

coming.

Thanks for having me.

Oh man, Natasha, thank you for coming.

And um uh you're just the best. And you

know, Natasha talked about so many

things, but she mentioned something that

I wanted to just remind listeners about

as we plunge into our polar plunge at

the end of the show, and that is the

book Heartburn by Norah Efron. It's an

incredible deep dive character study

into the breakup of a marriage. Um, and

it also was made into a film with Meil

Stre and Jack Nicholson. I would advise

reading the book and then watching the

movie, but you can do it either way. But

both are just these beautiful pieces of

art and really honest storytelling and

um heartburn. So good. Still so good.

Nora, so good. Thank you for everything

that you gave us. Um all right. Well,

thanks so much for listening to Good

Hang and uh we'll we'll we'll see you

soon. Bye.

You've been listening to Good Hang. The

executive producers for this show are

Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss Berman, and

me, Amy Polar. The show is produced by

The Ringer and Paperkite. For the Ringer

production by Jack Wilson, Cat Spalain,

Kaia McMullen, and Aia Xenier. For

Paperkite, production by Sam Green, Joel

Levelvel, and Jenna Weiss Berman.

Original music by Amy Miles.

really good. Hey